I’ve been curious about “The Ledge” for awhile now, mostly based on it’s killer premise: A Christian Fundamentalist traps an avowed Atheist in a Jigsaw-esque mindgame – if the Atheist doesn’t jump to his death from a skyscraper ledge within a certain amount of time, the Fundamentalist will kill someone else in his place; his idea being to “prove” the moral-inferiority of Atheism by showing that said Atheist will be less willing to lay down his life without the promise of an afterlife to reassure him.
Unfortunately, the trailer seems to display a dissapointing though unsurprising dodge on the “bite” of the premise…
So… apparently, what’s “really” bugging the bad guy is that the Atheist in question had an affair with his wife.
Sigh. This will live or die by the acting, either way, but it’s endlessly frustrating (and I’m NOT an Atheist) that movies about Religion-as-pathology always need to add “something else” to be the “real” reason for the psychosis. How much darker/scarier/edgier a premise would it be to just SAY what a lot of people already know – that “harmless” sincere-to-the-point-of-creepy spiritual faith is NOT all that far removed, psychologically, from a full-on dangerous break with reality and sometimes people’s switches just “flip?” The notion that Ned Flanders is one misfired-synapse away from Norman Bates is creepier, to me, than “don’t sleep with a crazy guy’s wife.”
Incidentally, looking at the reaction this around the web, this trailer ALSO provides a handy way to test the “worth-my-time-ness” of your aquaintances: If you show this to someone and their first reaction is along the lines of “Ugh! Always picking on the Christians! Why couldn’t it have been a MUSLIM, everyone knows they do more of this stuff!”, that person is probably not worth taking very seriously.
MOVIEBOB CENTRAL 
As an atheist, I was definitely interested in the premise. But I agree with you. The romance angle just poos all over the potential. And from the trailer, the acting looks atrocious. It screams straight to video.
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Like the guy above me, I too am an Atheist and I couldn't agree more with you Bob. It would have been a lot more interesting if there wasn't an angle to it. Like how Water for Elephants would have been a lot more interesting if Christophe Waltz's character weren't an asshole, then there would have been a real morale dilemma that would have been much more interesting rather than the, “She's married but he's a jerk so it's ok” angle they pulled. That would have been an award worthy movie.
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Hi, Atheist here.
1. Hmmmm, Liv Tyler, maybe not the best actress, but she's usually in pretty good movies.
2. This movie is confusing faith and religion with morality and personal ethics. It's basically just a guy that's pissed at his wife and her boyfriend and calls God as an argument. It seems to have no substance whatsoever.
According to his own bible though, he should stone his wife to death.
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I'm sorry but isn't the entire premise just idiotic?
If someone was so keen to prove moral superiority how could you possibly kill someone?
That's like going 'I'm going to prove the moral superiority of the pro life movement by killing this orphan unless her biological parent commits suicide' Your actions completely nullify any pretense that you are sane enough to pass judgment on anyone.
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@ Rob,
You mean according to Old Testament law he is stone his wife to death, and even then, it's not him, but the entire community, as an act of the physical removal of sin from the village.
But that was all before the sin was able to be separated from the sinner. What a lot of christians don't realize these days is that the Christianity is about redemption, and forgiveness, even when we are unable to forgive ourselves for our actions. The loud mouthed 'burn-in-hell' fire and brimstone speakers have it wrong. Being a christian isn't about judging others doom, but judging your own, and realizing that there is nothing in your power that control it, except for God of course.
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I might have called it a bit insensitive as our culture has been a bit quick to assume violent criminals were right-wing Christians and vice versa lately (Bob's comments up there just adding to that).
However, for it to actually be “insensitive” would imply that that wasn't the whole point. Stupid premise with a couple d-list actors and a has-been says to me that they're just trying to attract attention to the movie that it really doesn't deserve.
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Thou Shalt not Kill.
Anyone willing to kill to prove that point isn't really a Christian, just another asshole in a world full of assholes. Frankly, I'd rather watch paint dry.
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this film has not really grabbed my attention. looks like they added the religion angle just to get buzz to a basic revenge for sleeping with my wife flick.
The actors are what will carry this. The actors are far from d-list. Terrance Howard and Liv are far from d-list.
I wait to see it before i pass judgment but first impression is a bad indie film trying way to hard to be edgy.
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@ Bob, R, & Tyler
The movie reeks of xenophobia as it is. It would be border-line hate speech with out the romance angle.
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@TheAlmightyNarf
The reason people are quick to assume violence on the part of right wing Christian is because it plays on our sense of irony. The Corrupt Moralist. It's funny if you think about it. Here, it's basically this comic:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2234#comic
Now, I don't know if it's fair but to most people the hypocrisy is worst than the crime.
@Reverend
Wait… are you suggesting that any church that openly endorses war and murder doesn't speak for God and are just endorsing right-wing candidates that do for the sake political opportunism.
Huh? Go figure…
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@ argryliberal
Mocking hypocritical Christians is irony and, yes, usually pretty funny. However, something like… oh, I dunno… assuming the crazed shooter of a congress woman MUST have been a rightwinger despite all evidence to the contrary is something else entirely.
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They gave away the twist in the trailer:
0. Wife cheating on fundie husband with, GASP! AN ATHEIST!
1. Fundie says he wanted to break into the room and kill them both.
2. Fundie says if he says something he'll do it.
3. Now he's pulling out a gun? OH BOY! I WONDER WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT??? … Not!
The sole reason there's a fundie in the movie at all is because controversy sells tickets.
Green Mile movie quote time because this is a HINT HINT for anyone stupid enough to be confused about who the real villain is, and the last thing i'll say about this movie because i'm hulking out:
“John Coffey: He killed them with their love. With their love for each other.”
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Yeah the initial premise might have been interesting to see, but the trailer I watched pretty much screamed “Let's do something controversial/condescending to incite Christians to pay attention to a movie they otherwise would have never even hear of”, kinda like how I'd never heard of this film until this blog.
I am a Christian and I don't really care if they make fun of fundies or even regular average Joe Christian a lot of the time because I figure everyone is fair game. So I don't find this offensive at all but also not terribly interesting. Psycho husband who happens to invoke God doesn't really say much to me.
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Hey Jaxs form Sons Of Anarchy plays the main guy in this. I might end of seeing this movie yet. Speaking of Sons Of Anarchy Ron Perlman is my god.
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Funny thought… ya think if most Christians see this for what it is they'll pull an EA and get fake Christians to protest it?
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What do you mean by “bite” Bob?
Follow up question: Why didn't you just WRITE THAT?
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@TheAlmightyNarf
Not really, Narf but I see what your getting at. I say not really because if you remember correctly the GOP approval rating didn't really falter and any anti-right wing measure made as a response (gun control, law suits) never materialized. The majority of the assumptions came from paranoid liberal conspiracy theorist that were quickly dismissed anyway.
You can't stop the loud and paranoid from spouting out BS so long as it doesn't materialize in any actual grand gesture or legal prosecution. Christianity right now is still the dominate religion in the US, and just as all dominate forces anywhere in the world, is treated like Big Brother.
And Big Brother is always fair game for bile. Just look what happened to Avatar and Titanic.
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@ argryliberal
My point is that that knee-jerk reaction is still a bit of a sore wound for many Christians. I can't speak for the community at large, but least in my case this trailer offended me on a more personal level than run-of-the-mill racism/xenophobia would. It'd be like making a movie about a bunch of middle-eastern hijacking an airplane… it's just blatantly insensitive.
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@TheAlmightyNarf
Do you want to think about that simile for a second?
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@ argryliberal
In both cases people were associated with and vicariously blamed for violent acts by no fault of their own, solely because of their beliefs… despite the fact that what they believed had absolutely nothing in common with those who actually committed those violent acts.
The only difference being that Al Qaeda actually claimed to hold Islamic beliefs, while Jared Loughner did not, in fact, claim to hold right-wing/Christian beliefs.
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“Ugh! Always picking on the Christians! Why couldn't it have been a MUSLIM, everyone knows they do more of this stuff!”
Wow. That has GOT to be THE most hypocritical statement I've ever heard! PLEASE don't tell me there are people out there who actually have that mindset!
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Just curious, Bob, would you have had the same initial curiosity if it had of been the atheist trying to kill the Christian in the movie?
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Wow, this is kinda dumb.
Admittedly the premise as you laid it out prior to the jump seems edgy and controversal in a way that would draw attention and make the plot interesting. Its a set-up for the ultimate debate of the morality of the religious versus the morality of the non-theists. The reality of the trailer is a big soggy wet blanket being thrown over the flames of interest and smothering them to death. The plot is is the classic “man goes nuts on cheating wife and her lover” type deal with the supposed hook being that he also happens to be a fundi while his compettition is an atheist. Really, the religious angle just seems thrown in as a cheep way to rev up interest in a tired old plot, and its not even used all that well. Really, the man being an atheist means nothing. If he were another christian or a member of another faith the story wouldn't be that much different. I actually look forward to the day when someone finds a way to translate the raging conflict between fundies and Atheists to film without resorting to cliche plots like this.
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So it's basically Phone Booth, then.
PHONE BOOTH SPOILERS:
It'll probably have the exact same tearful public confession scene at the end as well. “Everyone, I'm so sorry I hurt you, I never realised how much of a dick I was!” etc…
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@ Smashmatt202
No one believes that. Bob just has an incredably bizzare (and frankly, somewhat bigoted) view of Christians.
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@ TheAlmightyNarf
Can you really blame him? They do act kind of… arrogant. Sometimes. Granted, they're not as violent as Muslims, but still, it's not like ALL people act the same way because of their religion.
Not to mention, Bob's said many times that he's NOT an Atheist. He's been to Christian school, and I think it's because of that, and his overly-intelligent nature, that he seems to have a “thing” for them.
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@ Smashmatt202
“Can you really blame him?”
Umm… yes! Absolutely. Bigotry and xenophobia really aren't acceptable behaviors for anyone for whatever reason.
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I don't know about you, but I think that if you ARE a Christian, you have a right to complain about the people you're associated with. Same way in that he's a gamer, and he says we need to shape up.
And again, it's not xenophobia, because he's stated dozens of times that he IS a Christian. He went to Christian school and everything, so he knows what he's talking about when it comes to Christianity.
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@Display Named
The answer: No. But then again that movie has already been made and just as I said before there's no irony to that that could make it interesting.
The thing that intrigued Bob about this film was its subject matter of Moral piousness that acts as mirror to a majority of this country that… well… really never consider this point of view about there own religion.
Atheist and Agnostics are always considered morally inferior and when one talks about violent religious extremism one almost always is talking about Islam.
@TheAlmightyNerf
There's a level where insensitivity becomes wrong and this isn't one of them. This is a film. Complaining about this is no better than PC groups complaining about Birth of Nation or Huckleberry Finn. If you believe the film is in the wrong then you have explain how the sentiment behind the film (that Bob wanted) is wrong and, just because it hurt your feelings isn't good enough.
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Ummm…has Bob ever actually confirmed that he is a Christian of any sort now? His bio says he's a severely lapsed Catholic which I read as “was one once, but is no longer”. Since he's not an atheist wouldn't that make him a deist?
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@ Narf
No one believes that. Bob just has an incredably bizzare (and frankly, somewhat bigoted) view of Christians.
And what exactly constitutes bigotry against christians in theis case. I've heard that charge laid against many people, and curiously it their 'bigotry' usually ends up being some variant of “does not want christians to be able to enforce their religion as law” or “does not want to be unfairly treated because they are not a christian.”
If you are gonna make a loaded charge like that, back it up.
@ Smashmatt
“Granted, they're not as violent as Muslims”
Seriously? After raising a big fuss about that very mindset you are using it yourself?
Can't we all agree that the abrahamic religions have spawned a shitload of misery as the various parties fight for who is worshiping the same god the right way?
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Do you WATCH Escape to the Movies and The Big Picture? He's mentioned numerous times… Well, maybe 2 or three times, that he's a “Catholic School survivor”. In fact…
Watch this episode to see where he stands on believing in God:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/2601-Nerd-Gods
Also, I'm sorry, but when a religious group gets in a HUGE hissy fit over drawing a simple caricature of their idol (regardless of the intention of the caricature), I can't help but get the impression that they're a bit overly sensitive. Not to mention, isn't the Taliban comprised of Muslims? Perhaps I should do more research. Point is, I said they're not all like that, obviously.
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“Can you really blame him? They do act kind of… arrogant. Sometimes. Granted, they're not as violent as Muslims, but still, it's not like ALL people act the same way because of their religion.”
That's the single most ignorant thing said on this blog. And considering this is MovieBob we're talking about, that's quite a statement.
More people have been killed in the name of Jesus Christ than any other person in history, including Hitler.
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@ Smashmatt202
I don't know what Bob's religious beliefs are or are not, but that's mute.
The presumption that Christians, particularly fundamentalist Christians, are all just a bunch of crazy violent criminals in waiting is a bigoted, xenophobic stance with absolutely no basis in reality. There are no shortage of things one can legitimately be angry with the Christian community about… this is not one of them.
@ argryliberal
Well, like I said back in my first comment, I wouldn't even give this film the credit of being sincerely insensitive as it's clearly just trying to stir up controversy and get undeserved attention.
@ Dave from canada
“And what exactly constitutes bigotry against christians in theis case.”
I would say Bob's comment from up above:
“How much darker/scarier/edgier a premise would it be to just SAY what a lot of people already know – that 'harmless' sincere-to-the-point-of-creepy spiritual faith is NOT all that far removed, psychologically, from a full-on dangerous break with reality and sometimes people's switches just 'flip?'”
A presumption the Christians must be violent simply because they are Christians is bigoted.
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@ argryliberal
Ya know, on second thought… no. A film going out of it's way to offend a specific group of people is pretty much insensitivity by definition. Huck Fin and Birth of a Nation use otherwise offensive imagery to make strong social/political points, not to actually offend anyone. The Ledge, if it says anything at all, it's “Beware of those crazy Christians! They'll kill ya if you're not careful!” I don't see how that could be anything other than insensitivity.
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Look, I might be ignorant, and for that I apologize. I'm just saying what I think based on where I came from. I'd like to know more or wish I didn't sound so insensitive, but from my perspective and what I've seen, that's what I think. Then again, I'm also easily swayed after hearing more information.
And I KNOW people killed in Jesus's name. I know about the Crusades… Wait, HITLER killed in Jesus's name? I didn't know that! In fact, I was almost certain he didn't like Christianity. Or maybe that was just US propaganda.
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@Reverend Allan Ironside:
Thank you for fulfilling my expectations regarding Christians and the use of the No True Scotsman logical fallacy. It appears to be impossible to engage with Christians in debates about morality without that little gem popping up at least once, but at least it is a signpost that one of the debaters is running out of legitimate arguments to make.
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@ Benfea
This is actually an interesting discussion I've gotten into a few times. Religions are in a lot of ways not unlike political ideologies… they're essentially a collection of common beliefs. If you share those beliefs then you're a member of that religion or ideology. If you don't than you're not, regardless of what you want to call yourself.
For example: if someone thinks the government should be larger and have more influence they could call themselves a libertarian all they want, but they are clearly not one. By that same reasoning, anyone who's beliefs and actions directly conflict with the what the New Testament teaches are clearly not a Christian.
I mean, if we considered someone a “Christian” regardless of what they believe simply because they called them self one, then the word would have have no meaning.
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“According to his own bible though, he should stone his wife to death.”
Just thought I'd second that comment and add this premise does not seem like it has enough thought put into it.
To me a movie like this should be more like Crash except show how if there is a God he doesn't give a damn about anyone or anything and that we are just a spec in the vast universe right now.
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meh, as an atheist myself I find this premise to be PRETTY dull.
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Dammit. Just today I had an argument with my Dad trying to convince him that there was no liberal agenda in Hollywood, and we only notice what we disagree with so sensitively rather than seeing everything else.
Now something like this is going to add more fuel to the fire.
I want a movie where a fundamental Christian gets the verbal smackdown of rationality from another believer rather than science and religion (or whatever) always being in conflict with each other.
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Sorry for double posting but…
“According to his own bible though, he should stone his wife to death.”
Just thought I'd second that comment
I don't want to go off-topic or a religious argument here, but this sort of thing is always a major understanding. A lot of Christians have crap justifications for that, but there's a reason the Bible is “contradictory”.
– Jesus in the New Testament comes in to basically correct the old laws and bring them back to the original principles. Basically, the Ten Commandments. If you read his lessons and parables, he basically says “It doesn't matter what anyone else does, you live a good life and treat others better than yourself”
– The Old Testament, after specifying the Ten Commandments, is filled with people whining “What if he does this to me?” and then creating a ton of conditionals. Considering the goings-on at the time with Moses leading everyone into the desert, I'd imagine that was a lot less God's word and a lot more of man making up their own laws.
Old Testament is best taken as a historical text with a lot of symbolism (even if you don't imagine the God stuff as fact it's the remnants of an old culture). The New Testament is a philosophical text and where people should look for lessons on morality.
It's a major nit pick of mine when people bring up the Old Testament. Sure, according to some Jewish guy that was law, but according to Christ it wasn't. Any “Christian” that can't tell the difference has issues actually thinking rationally about what he reads.
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@ Chris Cesarano
“I want a movie where a fundamental Christian gets the verbal smackdown of rationality from another believer”
http://www.hulu.com/watch/177536/lord-save-us-from-your-followers
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@Tyler:
Isn't “She's married but he's not an asshole” what makes “The Bridges of Madison County”?
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@ Narf.
“A presumption the Christians must be violent simply because they are Christians is bigoted.”
It sure would be…if that was even close to what he said.
-He wasn't singling out christians, he was talking about faith in general.
-at no point is he saying that religious people MUST be violent, nor is he saying that it is because they are religious.
NONE of what you said applied to his statement.
What he is saying (I’m paraphrasing) is that the nonviolent people of faith still possess a mindset of believing things without proof (and in some cases, in the face of proof to the contrary) that is far more similar to the minds of religious fanatics than anyone would like to believe. Once you start believing in things without evidence, it becomes much easier to engage in irrational, violent behaviour.
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@ Dave from canada
Fair enough that that particular comment didn't single out Christians. That was more inferred by Bob's history of contempt for Christians. Bigotry toward faith in general, then.
“Once you start believing in things without evidence, it becomes much easier to engage in irrational, violent behaviour.”
That's a pretty silly concept on it's face. If there were someone who personally researched every fact they believed and never took anyone else's word for it, I would think that would be the person more likely to go crazy. I mean, does this apply to theoretical physics too? Are people who believe in M-theory or Higgs-theory more likely to snap than people who don't?
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Bob's history of contempt towards Christians? What are you on about? All I can think of is him being against a creationist theme park and mocking the slightly silly modern conception of the Devil. Don't be so defensive.
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Did we really think the idea of “religion as crazy” was going to be in an actual film? I mean, “religion as benevolent lie” was badly recieved enough in The Invention of Lying. It would be interesting to drag out and examine the psychological nuts and bolts of believing that your invisible friend who created the world gave you a book telling you to kill people who work on sundays, sure, but no-one in Hollywood would have the stones.
A shame; A fundamentalist Christian as a psychotic bad guy precisely BECAUSE he's a fundamentalist Christian sounds like an interesting idea. I mean, not being able to talk your assailant down because he believes God wants him to do this terrible thing, maybe including elements of “The crazy-ass Christian Bible: The greatest hits”.
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“You have a sexy mouth” HA Like Father like daughter!
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